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Thread: XE8 my advice for windows dev. : skip it



Permlink Replies: 24 - Last Post: Apr 16, 2015 4:57 AM Last Post By: Dimitrij Kowalski
Jacques Vignoles

Posts: 15
Registered: 1/3/03
XE8 my advice for windows dev. : skip it
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  Posted: Apr 13, 2015 9:23 AM
So XE8 has been released.

On the IDE side, CASTALIA has been added, and it is nothing short of terrible:
* Crashes straight out of the box by just invoking its menu
* Do only a fragment of what CNPack does, and less efficiently
* It's been a pretty long time since the IDE did not crashed during edition loosing the current edit, but now thanks to Castalia, this is back
* Fart a bunch of useless "stat" files everywhere along your code
* Can't be disactivated easily

on the Pascal dialect, not even the slightest improvement has been added (no friendly initialization of variable/ static arrays, no alignment directives, no updated BASM, no c-ish operators, nothing new AFAICS)

None to very little things done to Windows targets,

and IOS 64 bits without debugging topkek !

So we end up with a less stable IDE with no value added at all on the Win32 side. I'd advise to skip it, and wait (pray) for a decent XE9
David Millington

Posts: 257
Registered: 5/29/05
Re: XE8 my advice for windows dev. : skip it
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  Posted: Apr 13, 2015 10:16 AM   in response to: Jacques Vignoles in response to: Jacques Vignoles
Jacques Vignoles wrote:
* Can't be disactivated easily

You can deactivate it by running Delphi with /nocastalia. I've changed my shortcut to do this.

and IOS 64 bits without debugging

That's surprising, I wasn't aware of that. Do you know why?
Christopher Burke

Posts: 580
Registered: 9/25/99
Re: XE8 my advice for windows dev. : skip it
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  Posted: Apr 13, 2015 10:38 AM   in response to: David Millington in response to: David Millington
David Millington <> wrote in news:720189 at forums dot embarcadero dot com:

Jacques Vignoles wrote:
* Can't be disactivated easily

You can deactivate it by running Delphi with /nocastalia. I've changed
my shortcut to do this.

Thanks, causes way too many issues here.

For me - for the first time in 3 years, I have a working help system - so
it is worth the update.
Jacques Vignoles

Posts: 15
Registered: 1/3/03
Re: XE8 my advice for windows dev. : skip it
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  Posted: Apr 13, 2015 7:12 PM   in response to: David Millington in response to: David Millington
David Millington wrote:
Jacques Vignoles wrote:
* Can't be disactivated easily

You can deactivate it by running Delphi with /nocastalia. I've changed my shortcut to do this.

Thank you David, you saved my day


and IOS 64 bits without debugging

That's surprising, I wasn't aware of that. Do you know why?

Yet another half-baked feature to put on a "what's new" list. At least, it doesn't crashes the IDE.

IMHO, it's the most frustrating in Delphi: So many good ideas with poor and/or incomplete implementations (also some very bad ideas from day 1 as well, such as the infamous Dexplore help system, plus a few other)

Jacques Vignoles

Posts: 15
Registered: 1/3/03
Re: XE8 my advice for windows dev. : skip it
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  Posted: Apr 14, 2015 7:51 AM   in response to: Jacques Vignoles in response to: Jacques Vignoles
Jacques Vignoles wrote:
So many good ideas with poor and/or incomplete implementations [...]

I'd complete this statement.

and usually it takes 3-4 years of "major release" to have the feature implemented in a decent way ... or never.
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: XE8 my advice for windows dev. : skip it
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  Posted: Apr 14, 2015 10:41 AM   in response to: Jacques Vignoles in response to: Jacques Vignoles
Am 14.04.2015 um 04:12 schrieb Jacques Vignoles:
David Millington wrote:
Jacques Vignoles wrote:
* Can't be disactivated easily

You can deactivate it by running Delphi with /nocastalia. I've changed my shortcut to do this.

Thank you David, you saved my day


and IOS 64 bits without debugging

That's surprising, I wasn't aware of that. Do you know why?

Yet another half-baked feature to put on a "what's new" list. At least, it doesn't crashes the IDE.

IMHO, it's the most frustrating in Delphi: So many good ideas with poor and/or incomplete implementations (also some very bad ideas from day 1 as well, such as the infamous Dexplore help system, plus a few other)


Hello,

the dexplorer help system (or hh2 afaik) was due to the MSDN
documentation being delivered in that format. Better blame MS for thst.

Why did they develop several half baked help systems for different
application instead of developing just one but properly working one and
better spend the additional ressources into real help contents?

That's afaik part of the internal structure of MS where different groups
seem to be reinventing the wheel without talking to each other.

Greetings

Markus
Giel -

Posts: 8
Registered: 9/30/08
Re: XE8 my advice for windows dev. : skip it
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  Posted: Apr 13, 2015 11:05 AM   in response to: Jacques Vignoles in response to: Jacques Vignoles
For me, the XE8 IDE works much better than XE7, which was really slow.
Alas, I disabled Castalia.

Giel

Dirk Carstensen

Posts: 33
Registered: 3/23/00
Re: XE8 my advice for windows dev. : skip it
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  Posted: Apr 13, 2015 12:28 PM   in response to: Giel - in response to: Giel -
Giel - wrote:
For me, the XE8 IDE works much better than XE7, which was really slow.
Alas, I disabled Castalia.

Giel


I gave Castalia a chance after betaphase, but disabled after sawing the first unhandled exception. This was after 5 minutes.
Also for MacOS development nothing has changed between XE7 & XE8. Incorrect unspooling, memory leaks, all the same.
So my advice is also skip XE8
Dirk
David Millington

Posts: 257
Registered: 5/29/05
Re: XE8 my advice for windows dev. : skip it
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  Posted: Apr 13, 2015 2:22 PM   in response to: Dirk Carstensen in response to: Dirk Carstensen
Dirk Carstensen wrote:
Also for MacOS development nothing has changed between XE7 & XE8. Incorrect unspooling, memory leaks, all the same.

Can you expand on those please? What is incorrect unspooling, for example?

I have compiled for OS X, but I think the last time I did anything major I was using XE4. I don't remember noticing anything too bad.

Cheers,

David
Dirk Carstensen

Posts: 33
Registered: 3/23/00
Re: XE8 my advice for windows dev. : skip it
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  Posted: Apr 14, 2015 5:59 AM   in response to: David Millington in response to: David Millington
Hi David,

it's RSP-9723 - [MacOS] application gets terminated/Halt(0) on close. Incorrect unspooling
together with
RSP-9726 - Memory leaks in MacApi.ObjectiveC bridge

MacOS Application does not free (global) memory on closing, so it's impossible to user leak detection tools like FastMM4.
An empty XE8 application with FastMM4 FullDebugMode produces 20MB logfile for memory leaks. This is not acceptable.
It seems there is no priority to produce stable MacOS desktop applications...

Best regards
Dirk

David Millington wrote:
Dirk Carstensen wrote:
Also for MacOS development nothing has changed between XE7 & XE8. Incorrect unspooling, memory leaks, all the same.

Can you expand on those please? What is incorrect unspooling, for example?

I have compiled for OS X, but I think the last time I did anything major I was using XE4. I don't remember noticing anything too bad.

Cheers,

David

Edited by: Dirk Carstensen on Apr 14, 2015 5:59 AM
Janez Atmapuri ...

Posts: 240
Registered: 2/8/00
Re: XE8 my advice for windows dev. : skip it [Edit]
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  Posted: Apr 14, 2015 9:08 AM   in response to: Dirk Carstensen in response to: Dirk Carstensen
Hello Dirk,

Well, yes. But there is a workaround. You can debug for memory leaks on
Win32 platform and only build for OS X. Most of the "horrible" issues hurt
much less, because you only need to "deploy" to the target platform, but as
long as you follow some simple rules, you can develop everything with win32
as the target and only scratch your head for the last month, before
deployment. There is still economy in that.

Finding a decent development system for embedded devices is a pain in the
butt in general. So you cant be as strict with "other platforms" as you can
be with "Win32" in Delphi. There is some value to it, despite loads of
issues, because finding something better is well, not there <g>

My impression with XE8 is that there is a definite step forward when it
comes to bug count for FireMonkey and the speed of FireMonkey. That does not
mean that all the bugs were fixed and it also does not mean that FireMonkey
now flies, but the improvement in compare to XE7 is big.

Kind Regards!
Atmapuri

"Dirk Carstensen" wrote in message news:720266 at forums dot embarcadero dot com...

Hi David,

it's RSP-9723 - [MacOS] application gets terminated/Halt(0) on close.
Incorrect unspooling
together with
RSP-9726 - Memory leaks in MacApi.ObjectiveC bridge

MacOS Application does not free (global) memory on closing, so it's
impossible to user leak detection tools like FastMM4.
An empty XE8 application with FastMM4 FullDebugMode produces 20MB logfile
for memory leaks. This is not acceptable.
It seems there is no priority to produce stable MacOS desktop
applications...

Best regards
Dirk

David Millington wrote:
Dirk Carstensen wrote:
Also for MacOS development nothing has changed between XE7 & XE8.
Incorrect unspooling, memory leaks, all the same.

Can you expand on those please? What is incorrect unspooling, for example?

I have compiled for OS X, but I think the last time I did anything major I
was using XE4. I don't remember noticing anything too bad.

Cheers,

David

Edited by: Dirk Carstensen on Apr 14, 2015 5:59 AM
Dirk Carstensen

Posts: 33
Registered: 3/23/00
Re: XE8 my advice for windows dev. : skip it [Edit]
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  Posted: Apr 14, 2015 1:12 PM   in response to: Janez Atmapuri ... in response to: Janez Atmapuri ...
Hi Janez,

thanks for your suggestions! That's what i already do: Leak checking on Win32 & hoping that the code has no leaks in MacOS target.
With this method you can find out the most leaking bugs, but:
I have some important platform/OS dependant code like font processing, that code i cannot properly check. It's called very often like getting glyph outlines paths. How to check this?
And how to be sure that e.g. NSCursor doesn't leak on every mouse move? We had this before (QC report). How can Emb. ensure FMX framework does not have runtime leaks?

Best regards
Dirk

Janez Atmapuri Makovsek wrote:
Hello Dirk,

Well, yes. But there is a workaround. You can debug for memory leaks on
Win32 platform and only build for OS X. Most of the "horrible" issues hurt
much less, because you only need to "deploy" to the target platform, but as
long as you follow some simple rules, you can develop everything with win32
as the target and only scratch your head for the last month, before
deployment. There is still economy in that.

Finding a decent development system for embedded devices is a pain in the
butt in general. So you cant be as strict with "other platforms" as you can
be with "Win32" in Delphi. There is some value to it, despite loads of
issues, because finding something better is well, not there <g>

My impression with XE8 is that there is a definite step forward when it
comes to bug count for FireMonkey and the speed of FireMonkey. That does not
mean that all the bugs were fixed and it also does not mean that FireMonkey
now flies, but the improvement in compare to XE7 is big.

Kind Regards!
Atmapuri

"Dirk Carstensen" wrote in message news:720266 at forums dot embarcadero dot com...

Hi David,

it's RSP-9723 - [MacOS] application gets terminated/Halt(0) on close.
Incorrect unspooling
together with
RSP-9726 - Memory leaks in MacApi.ObjectiveC bridge

MacOS Application does not free (global) memory on closing, so it's
impossible to user leak detection tools like FastMM4.
An empty XE8 application with FastMM4 FullDebugMode produces 20MB logfile
for memory leaks. This is not acceptable.
It seems there is no priority to produce stable MacOS desktop
applications...

Best regards
Dirk

David Millington wrote:
Dirk Carstensen wrote:
Also for MacOS development nothing has changed between XE7 & XE8.
Incorrect unspooling, memory leaks, all the same.

Can you expand on those please? What is incorrect unspooling, for example?

I have compiled for OS X, but I think the last time I did anything major I
was using XE4. I don't remember noticing anything too bad.

Cheers,

David

Edited by: Dirk Carstensen on Apr 14, 2015 5:59 AM
Janez Atmapuri ...

Posts: 240
Registered: 2/8/00
Re: XE8 my advice for windows dev. : skip it [Edit]
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  Posted: Apr 15, 2015 12:39 AM   in response to: Dirk Carstensen in response to: Dirk Carstensen
Dear Dirk,

Think like this:
If all such issues were to be fixed, that would make Delphi #1 development
system in the world. That would be just too good : )

Atmapuri
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: XE8 my advice for windows dev. : skip it [Edit]
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  Posted: Apr 15, 2015 11:38 AM   in response to: Janez Atmapuri ... in response to: Janez Atmapuri ...
Am 15.04.2015 um 09:39 schrieb Janez Atmapuri Makovsek:
Dear Dirk,

Think like this:
If all such issues were to be fixed, that would make Delphi #1 development
system in the world. That would be just too good : )

Atmapuri

Hello,

afaik EMBT got it by now that they should do more in that area.
I just think they're still not 100% commited to that as it's on shutdown
only.

But let'shope they'll improve from version to version now to make it at
least bearable.

Greetings

Markus
Farshad Mohajeri

Posts: 120
Registered: 12/28/06
Re: XE8 my advice for windows dev. : skip it
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  Posted: Apr 13, 2015 1:18 PM   in response to: Jacques Vignoles in response to: Jacques Vignoles
Jacques Vignoles wrote:
So XE8 has been released.

On the IDE side, CASTALIA has been added, and it is nothing short of terrible:
* Crashes straight out of the box by just invoking its menu

On my primary dev PC XE8 crashed until I disabled Castalia.
On another PC it ran without issues, but I noticed that Castalia slows down IDE so I disabled it again.
wenjie zhou

Posts: 424
Registered: 6/28/02
Re: XE8 my advice for windows dev. : skip it
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  Posted: Apr 14, 2015 6:53 AM   in response to: Jacques Vignoles in response to: Jacques Vignoles
Jacques Vignoles wrote:
So XE8 has been released.

On the IDE side, CASTALIA has been added, and it is nothing short of terrible:
* Crashes straight out of the box by just invoking its menu
* Do only a fragment of what CNPack does, and less efficiently
* It's been a pretty long time since the IDE did not crashed during edition loosing the current edit, but now thanks to Castalia, this is back
* Fart a bunch of useless "stat" files everywhere along your code
* Can't be disactivated easily

on the Pascal dialect, not even the slightest improvement has been added (no friendly initialization of variable/ static arrays, no alignment directives, no updated BASM, no c-ish operators, nothing new AFAICS)

None to very little things done to Windows targets,

and IOS 64 bits without debugging topkek !

So we end up with a less stable IDE with no value added at all on the Win32 side. I'd advise to skip it, and wait (pray) for a decent XE9

I have to say, we guys have a lot of patience. While others are fighting for products, we are fighting for IDE and rtl.
It is time for a change. Not waiting another IDE or Version, and Expect it to more stable and efficient.
Graeme Geldenhuys

Posts: 152
Registered: 5/25/01
Re: XE8 my advice for windows dev. : skip it
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  Posted: Apr 14, 2015 11:46 PM   in response to: wenjie zhou in response to: wenjie zhou
On 2015-04-14 14:53, wenjie zhou wrote:
I have to say, we guys have a lot of patience. While others are
fighting for products, we are fighting for IDE and rtl.

True. Maybe somebody else should develop an open source IDE, and simply
use the command line Delphi compiler (is that still available) with it?
Oh wait, there is Lazarus IDE which does that for FPC... I wonder what
would happen if you you used Lazarus IDE and specified the Delphi
compiler instead of FPC. I guess Lazarus will need to be tweaked to
support the probably different compiler parameters.

Regards,
Graeme
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: XE8 my advice for windows dev. : skip it
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  Posted: Apr 15, 2015 11:39 AM   in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys
Am 15.04.2015 um 08:46 schrieb Graeme Geldenhuys:
On 2015-04-14 14:53, wenjie zhou wrote:
I have to say, we guys have a lot of patience. While others are
fighting for products, we are fighting for IDE and rtl.

True. Maybe somebody else should develop an open source IDE, and simply
use the command line Delphi compiler (is that still available) with it?

Hello,

that's still available and afaik you may even isntsll Delphi as command
line only version on a dedicated build engine without requiring another
licence.

If I'm wrong somebody from EMBT correct me please.

Greetings

Markus
wenjie zhou

Posts: 424
Registered: 6/28/02
Re: XE8 my advice for windows dev. : skip it
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  Posted: Apr 14, 2015 6:53 AM   in response to: Jacques Vignoles in response to: Jacques Vignoles
Jacques Vignoles wrote:
So XE8 has been released.

On the IDE side, CASTALIA has been added, and it is nothing short of terrible:
* Crashes straight out of the box by just invoking its menu
* Do only a fragment of what CNPack does, and less efficiently
* It's been a pretty long time since the IDE did not crashed during edition loosing the current edit, but now thanks to Castalia, this is back
* Fart a bunch of useless "stat" files everywhere along your code
* Can't be disactivated easily

on the Pascal dialect, not even the slightest improvement has been added (no friendly initialization of variable/ static arrays, no alignment directives, no updated BASM, no c-ish operators, nothing new AFAICS)

None to very little things done to Windows targets,

and IOS 64 bits without debugging topkek !

So we end up with a less stable IDE with no value added at all on the Win32 side. I'd advise to skip it, and wait (pray) for a decent XE9

I have to say, we guys have a lot of patience. While others are fighting for products, we are fighting for IDE and rtl.
It is time for a change. Not waiting another IDE or Version, and Expect it to more stable and efficient.
wenjie zhou

Posts: 424
Registered: 6/28/02
Re: XE8 my advice for windows dev. : skip it
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Apr 14, 2015 6:30 PM   in response to: wenjie zhou in response to: wenjie zhou
Sorry for every one. I do not want post 3 times. It's just because network cause. And i click the button 3 times.
wenjie zhou

Posts: 424
Registered: 6/28/02
Re: XE8 my advice for windows dev. : skip it
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  Posted: Apr 14, 2015 6:54 AM   in response to: Jacques Vignoles in response to: Jacques Vignoles
Jacques Vignoles wrote:
So XE8 has been released.

On the IDE side, CASTALIA has been added, and it is nothing short of terrible:
* Crashes straight out of the box by just invoking its menu
* Do only a fragment of what CNPack does, and less efficiently
* It's been a pretty long time since the IDE did not crashed during edition loosing the current edit, but now thanks to Castalia, this is back
* Fart a bunch of useless "stat" files everywhere along your code
* Can't be disactivated easily

on the Pascal dialect, not even the slightest improvement has been added (no friendly initialization of variable/ static arrays, no alignment directives, no updated BASM, no c-ish operators, nothing new AFAICS)

None to very little things done to Windows targets,

and IOS 64 bits without debugging topkek !

So we end up with a less stable IDE with no value added at all on the Win32 side. I'd advise to skip it, and wait (pray) for a decent XE9

I have to say, we guys have a lot of patience. While others are fighting for products, we are fighting for IDE and rtl.
It is time for a change. Not waiting another IDE or Version, and Expect it to more stable and efficient.
Pete Williams

Posts: 3
Registered: 7/28/00
Re: XE8 my advice for windows dev. : skip it
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  Posted: Apr 15, 2015 2:03 AM   in response to: Jacques Vignoles in response to: Jacques Vignoles
CASTALIA crashes for me also. It immediately errors on startup,

It looks bad to me as a customer. I had just spent £1400 (XE5 -> XE7) and a further £700+ on a subscription service and the first time you run the IDE it crashes.

I renamed the castalia bpl file to fix the error, as I had not seen this thread.

It makes me feel like they didn't test it much.
Ronald Klitsche

Posts: 326
Registered: 8/26/01
Re: XE8 my advice for windows dev. : skip it
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  Posted: Apr 15, 2015 2:31 AM   in response to: Pete Williams in response to: Pete Williams
I renamed the castalia bpl file to fix the error, as I had not seen this
thread.

You can start Delphi with a /nocastalia parameter to disable that plugin.
Simon Horup

Posts: 18
Registered: 10/5/01
Re: XE8 my advice for windows dev. : skip it
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  Posted: Apr 15, 2015 3:40 AM   in response to: Jacques Vignoles in response to: Jacques Vignoles
New half baked features / unfixed bugs have been part of XEx releases for many years.

Due to a recent Embarcadero policy change, you have to live with those bugs and semi-working features, unless you pay for a subscription that allows you to get fixes for the stuff that isn't working when you buy the software. So actually it's a good economic strategy by Embarcadero, to put a lot on money into the marketing bucket, to promote their new software and sell a lot of it, even though it doesn't work properly out-of-the-box. Early and faithful customers are then forced into getting on the subscription train later on, to get fixes that makes the software work. If you don't want to pay continually, you are pretty much screwed as far as I understand it. Honestly I can't understand that's even legal : Sell software with glaring bugs that makes features unusable and then charge extra for selling updates that makes things work later on. Hmm. Embarcadero, just get it over with and make the subscription model mandatory now, if that's what you are determined to end up with anyway.

And when trying to find a work-around for a bug in the IDE / compiler, you have to be lucky to hit the Embarcadero forums opening hours. For me it seems like the forums are down for 50% of the time and it has been like that for a long time now. What message does that send to potential customers, that the company making a living of selling compilers can't manage to keep a relatively small online forum service spinning ? I know forum ( with an NNTP gateway ) software is not the simplest thing in the world, but if you put the resources into it and want to fix it, you can, Embarcadero. Please show the world that you are skilled enough to keep an online forum running 23+ hours a day ;) It will most probably be a good long-term decision to put some resources into getting it done now.

It's a bit frustrating that it seems to work out fine for Embarcadero to prioritize the way they do. They put a lot of resources into marketing and developing new features at the cost of fixing bugs and getting their foundations solid. Hopefully that will change at some point.
Dimitrij Kowalski

Posts: 92
Registered: 1/6/05
Re: XE8 my advice for windows dev. : skip it
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  Posted: Apr 16, 2015 4:57 AM   in response to: Simon Horup in response to: Simon Horup
simon horup wrote:

And when trying to find a work-around for a bug in the IDE / compiler, you have to be lucky to hit the Embarcadero forums opening hours. For me it seems like the forums are down for 50% of the time and it has been like that for a long time now. What message does that send to potential customers, that the company making a living of selling compilers can't manage to keep a relatively small online forum service spinning ?

The message is very depressing, this...this is just unbelievable that they can not fix the forum issue for so long. On my personal scale (0-10) this issue drops company credibility by 3 points and now is 2/10.
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