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Thread: Installing 10.2.2 alongside 10.2.1



Permlink Replies: 13 - Last Post: Dec 19, 2017 5:43 AM Last Post By: Josh Kelley
Josh Kelley

Posts: 75
Registered: 3/6/08
Installing 10.2.2 alongside 10.2.1
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  Posted: Dec 13, 2017 7:45 AM
Is there any way to install 10.2.2 alongside 10.2.1?

I'd like to start using 10.2.2 for internal development, but I also want
to keep 10.2.1 around to support our product releases, until we've had
time to do more internal testing of 10.2.2. I don't want to blindly
upgrade and assume everything will work; it looks like 10.2.2 changes a
decent amount, and RAD Studio doesn't have the greatest track record
with reliability in areas like high DPI support (10.2.1 broke things
from 10.2.0, and then the hotfix for 10.2.1 broke something else) and
the C++ compiler.

--
Josh Kelley
https://www.joshkel.com/
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Installing 10.2.2 alongside 10.2.1
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  Posted: Dec 13, 2017 7:51 AM   in response to: Josh Kelley in response to: Josh Kelley
Am 13.12.2017 um 16:45 schrieb Josh Kelley:
Is there any way to install 10.2.2 alongside 10.2.1?

I'd like to start using 10.2.2 for internal development, but I also want
to keep 10.2.1 around to support our product releases, until we've had
time to do more internal testing of 10.2.2. I don't want to blindly
upgrade and assume everything will work; it looks like 10.2.2 changes a
decent amount, and RAD Studio doesn't have the greatest track record
with reliability in areas like high DPI support (10.2.1 broke things
from 10.2.0, and then the hotfix for 10.2.1 broke something else) and
the C++ compiler.

Hello,

I don't think this is viable. Having XE8, Seattle, berling and Tokyo on
the same machine is ok.

But: why don't you set up a virtual machine for your 10.2.2 tests where
you install it into? Then it's separate.

Greetings

Markus
Remy Lebeau (Te...


Posts: 9,447
Registered: 12/23/01
Re: Installing 10.2.2 alongside 10.2.1
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  Posted: Dec 13, 2017 10:19 AM   in response to: Josh Kelley in response to: Josh Kelley
Josh Kelley wrote:

Is there any way to install 10.2.2 alongside 10.2.1?

No, because they are just updates to 10.2, they are not separate major
versions.

I'd like to start using 10.2.2 for internal development, but I also
want to keep 10.2.1 around to support our product releases, until
we've had time to do more internal testing of 10.2.2.

Then you need to install 10.2.1 and 10.2.2 on separate machines, or at
least in VMs.

--
Remy Lebeau (TeamB)
Josh Kelley

Posts: 75
Registered: 3/6/08
Re: Installing 10.2.2 alongside 10.2.1
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  Posted: Dec 15, 2017 3:33 PM   in response to: Remy Lebeau (Te... in response to: Remy Lebeau (Te...
On 12/13/2017 1:19 PM, Remy Lebeau (TeamB) wrote:
Josh Kelley wrote:

Is there any way to install 10.2.2 alongside 10.2.1?

No, because they are just updates to 10.2, they are not separate major
versions.

I guess my problem is it feels more like a major version - new features,
major cosmetic changes, version number bump to project file formats, new
framework / RTL bugs relative to 10.2.1.

I appreciate Embarcadero wanting to get features in our hands faster,
but not at the expense of stability.

Oh well. I do appreciate the reply.

--
Josh Kelley
https://www.joshkel.com/
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 392
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Installing 10.2.2 alongside 10.2.1
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  Posted: Dec 18, 2017 10:03 AM   in response to: Josh Kelley in response to: Josh Kelley
Josh Kelley wrote:

I guess my problem is it feels more like a major version - new features,
major cosmetic changes, version number bump to project file formats, new
framework / RTL bugs relative to 10.2.1.

If it's more than bug fixes, it is a new release. And as you're learning, that's a major problem in terms of testing and deployment. Worse, you may find a bug introduced in a new feature and then you have to choose between fixing old bugs or introducing new ones. It's not... normal what they're doing.

I appreciate Embarcadero wanting to get features in our hands faster,
but not at the expense of stability.

I said this to David Millington, and he was completely dumbfounded why someone wouldn't want new features mixed in with bug updates. Once I explained it all, he stopped replying to the conversation and obviously nothing I explained sunk in.
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 392
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Installing 10.2.2 alongside 10.2.1
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  Posted: Dec 18, 2017 10:00 AM   in response to: Remy Lebeau (Te... in response to: Remy Lebeau (Te...
Remy Lebeau (TeamB) wrote:

No, because they are just updates to 10.2, they are not separate major
versions.

Sigh. I had this conversation with David Millington months ago, but it looks like he didn't listen. I had to explain to him why introducing new features/changes in updates was a terrible idea. When bug fixes are mixed with changes, one can't deploy until one has investigated the impact of the changes - and what bugs they may introduce in turn. When an update is purely bug fixes, there is much less danger in updating and time to deployment can be much faster. Look at products such as Oracle, PostgreSQL, etc. - bug fix updates are always purely bug fixes for this reason. They want users to update as soon as possible.

And with no ability to readily deploy side by side, that just makes the job more difficult. It's like none of them actually develop software... which may be true for all I know. But you'd at least think they'd listen to their own customers when they explain to them that they don't want what they're trying to give us and why that is. :-(

Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Installing 10.2.2 alongside 10.2.1
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  Posted: Dec 18, 2017 11:53 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Am 18.12.2017 um 19:00 schrieb Joseph Mitzen:
Remy Lebeau (TeamB) wrote:

No, because they are just updates to 10.2, they are not separate major
versions.

Sigh. I had this conversation with David Millington months ago, but it looks like he didn't listen. I had to explain to him why introducing new features/changes in updates was a terrible idea. When bug fixes are mixed with changes, one can't deploy until one has investigated the impact of the changes - and what bugs they may introduce in turn. When an update is purely bug fixes, there is much less danger in updating and time to deployment can be much faster. Look at products such as Oracle, PostgreSQL, et
c. - bug fix updates are always purely bug fixes for this reason. They want users to update as soon as possible.


There is one difference: most fixes in those DB products etc. you're
mentioning they want users to deploy quickly are security related while
most fixes in Delphi are functional "only".

Greetings

Markus
Josh Kelley

Posts: 75
Registered: 3/6/08
Re: Installing 10.2.2 alongside 10.2.1
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  Posted: Dec 19, 2017 5:43 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
On 12/19/2017 2:53 AM, Markus Humm wrote:
There is one difference: most fixes in those DB products etc. you're
mentioning they want users to deploy quickly are security related while
most fixes in Delphi are functional "only".

I don't think that's correct. PostgreSQL 9.6.6, for example
(https://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.6/static/release-9-6-6.html) contains
38 fixes, but only 3 security fixes.

Almost every software package I pay attention to follows a similar
approach, of regular fixes-only maintenance releases and separate, less
frequent feature releases. RAD Studio is the only product I'm aware of
that forces you to accept them together (with the exception of the
occasional unscheduled hotfix).

Visual Studio
(https://www.visualstudio.com/en-us/productinfo/vs2017-release-rhythm)
comes closer to the RAD Studio model, with feature updates every six
weeks, but even they have bugfixes on top of the feature updates, and
they also have a much more streamlined update process, a better QA
process (I suspect), and publicly available previews that can be
installed alongside release versions.

--
Josh Kelley
https://www.joshkel.com/
John David

Posts: 86
Registered: 9/5/16
Re: Installing 10.2.2 alongside 10.2.1
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  Posted: Dec 13, 2017 4:52 PM   in response to: Josh Kelley in response to: Josh Kelley
On 13/12/2017 15:45, Josh Kelley wrote:
Is there any way to install 10.2.2 alongside 10.2.1?


Perhaps installing in another custom folder might do the trick.

Just a thought.
Remy Lebeau (Te...


Posts: 9,447
Registered: 12/23/01
Re: Installing 10.2.2 alongside 10.2.1
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  Posted: Dec 13, 2017 5:18 PM   in response to: John David in response to: John David
John David wrote:

Perhaps installing in another custom folder might do the trick.

No, because 10.2.2 is an update to 10.2, so it requires overwriting
(well, more accurately, uninstalling) 10.2.1 if it is installed. The
release notes even say so.

--
Remy Lebeau (TeamB)
John David

Posts: 86
Registered: 9/5/16
Re: Installing 10.2.2 alongside 10.2.1
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  Posted: Dec 13, 2017 5:29 PM   in response to: Remy Lebeau (Te... in response to: Remy Lebeau (Te...
On 14/12/2017 01:18, Remy Lebeau (TeamB) wrote:
John David wrote:

Perhaps installing in another custom folder might do the trick.

No, because 10.2.2 is an update to 10.2, so it requires overwriting
(well, more accurately, uninstalling) 10.2.1 if it is installed. The
release notes even say so.

I downloaded the full ISO of 10.2.2 and installed it on my machine in a
different folder and it seems to work just fine.

are you saying this might cause problems down the line or are you saying
that this becomes a licensing issue? Please clarify.
Remy Lebeau (Te...


Posts: 9,447
Registered: 12/23/01
Re: Installing 10.2.2 alongside 10.2.1
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  Posted: Dec 13, 2017 7:47 PM   in response to: John David in response to: John David
John David wrote:

I downloaded the full ISO of 10.2.2 and installed it on my machine in
a different folder and it seems to work just fine.

are you saying this might cause problems down the line or are you
saying that this becomes a licensing issue? Please clarify.

Multiple Updates for the same product version are not designed to run
in separate folders in parallel. They are designed to overwrite each
other. So, DO NOT install 10.2.1 and 10.2.2 together in separate
folders. Use separate machines/VMs instead.

--
Remy Lebeau (TeamB)
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Installing 10.2.2 alongside 10.2.1
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  Posted: Dec 14, 2017 12:06 AM   in response to: John David in response to: John David
Am 14.12.2017 um 02:29 schrieb John David:
On 14/12/2017 01:18, Remy Lebeau (TeamB) wrote:
John David wrote:

Perhaps installing in another custom folder might do the trick.

No, because 10.2.2 is an update to 10.2, so it requires overwriting
(well, more accurately, uninstalling) 10.2.1 if it is installed. The
release notes even say so.

I downloaded the full ISO of 10.2.2 and installed it on my machine in a
different folder and it seems to work just fine.

are you saying this might cause problems down the line or are you saying
that this becomes a licensing issue? Please clarify.

It most likely will create issues as e.g. the registry paths for
settings etc. will be the same as it's the same major version.
When they already upfront tell you it's not designed for your scenario
it most likely creates some issues. Whether they affect you or not is
something different, but don't tell us we didn't warn you ;-)

Greetings

Markus
Achim Kalwa

Posts: 39
Registered: 9/28/99
Re: Installing 10.2.2 alongside 10.2.1
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  Posted: Dec 14, 2017 2:10 AM   in response to: John David in response to: John David
Hello John,

I downloaded the full ISO of 10.2.2 and installed it on my machine in a
different folder and it seems to work just fine.

are you saying this might cause problems down the line or are you saying
that this becomes a licensing issue? Please clarify.

Both applications uses a lot of DLLs and BPLs, which are found by the
Windows' search PATH variable. Depending on which entry is first in the
PATH, either the 1st or the 2nd version will load it's libraries from
the wrong folder, i.e. coreide250.bpl or dcc32.exe. You will end up with
a mixture of both application versions, which may lead to all kind of
issues.
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